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A husband like Ram????????

June 2, 2010

Elders often bless young people as “ Ram Sita ki Jodi jaise bano/ May you find a husband like Ram/ Ram Sita ki Jodi lag rahi hai” .

Are they blessing the young ones or cursing them?

For me to get a husband like Ram is no blessing. I am not trying to hurt the religious sentiments of any one or criticizing Hinduism but just sharing my views

Does anyone want a husband who was more concerned and bothered about the society, his family, his reputation, people’s opinion than the concern about his life partner?

Some known facts from Ram’s life

1. When He agreed to a life of exile for 14 years he didn’t even think once about his wife. What will happen to her when he leaves for 14 years? Being husband was it not his duty to think about his wife?

2. During the 14 years he was in exile he was to observe the life of Sadhu and celibacy that means he was not supposed to have any matrimonial relations with his wife Sita for full 14 years. Does it not amount to cruelty? As per our Indian law this definitely is a case of cruelty and there are reliefs available in our Law . Granted she herself opted for it but do we want our daughters to live a life like that?

3. Admitted that he fought with Ravan and brought back Sita but then what? She was made to give Agni Prakisha to prove her chasteness, her integrity and her commitment to her husband

4. once back to normal life , just because some people commented on her stay at Ravan’s place Ram literally threw her out of his life and kingdom, without even informing her the reason and that too when she was pregnant. And left her in jungle.

5. He never bothered to find about the whereabouts of his wife or whether she was dead or alive.

6. He refused to acknowledge his children, rather asked his wife publically to prove that they were his children.

For a minute we may agree that for a king the opinion of his people is more important than in that case wonder why he didn’t step down from the throne to give support and to be with his wife and children? That means for him his kingdom, his status as a king was more important than his wife and children.

7. He may have loved her , He may have suffered while she was thrown out, he may have spent sleepless nights without her but the fact remains that he did not consider her, her well being at all.

What is use of loving a person or caring for him/her when one does not respect her/him, does not consider him/her to be human being? Do we want husbands like him for ourselves or for our daughters?

For me to get the respect which I deserve as an individual, as a fellow human being, is more important than tall claims of love. If a husband cannot stand up to his wife, if his opinions and decisions get swayed by the public opinion then what is the use of emotions like love in such a relation?

61 Comments leave one →
  1. June 2, 2010 7:39 pm

    Do you REALLY believe in all this? Treat it as a fictional story. Period!

    • June 2, 2010 7:44 pm

      Arjit how can we treat it as a fictional story. If it was a fiction then what is the answer for all the temples with ram as idol. It\f this is fiction then what about the existence of Hanuman, Ayodhoya, Sri Lanka ????????

      • June 3, 2010 9:09 pm

        Fiction is based around true places… The places were there when it was being written, they were just linked in the story.. .
        and the mandirs and all came after that… (personal opinion)

        But the point in your post is quite valid. Don’t really know why Ram-Sita are so coveted… Ram really was a selfish guy – only concerned for his values and beliefs… He was neither a good husband nor a good father.. excellent post!!

      • June 8, 2010 12:03 am

        I am not agree with anyone of you. As per my thought, Ram is an Idol for creating good thinking people in society. It gave inspiration to the people how to behave with wife and with husband and parents, etc. Ram may be considered as ‘punya’ and Ravan as ‘pap’. In every society both type of persons are available. Krushna is symbol of love.
        If we consider Ramayan as a fiction, then in ancient period who connected all places from Ayodhya to Sri Lanka in a single story. Who traveled around and located so many places from north to south even Indonesia. Those days no transportation was available and a single person can’t travel on all such places. Hence it might not be a fiction. Its a true story.

  2. Suffix permalink
    June 2, 2010 7:42 pm

    Thought provoking, my simple belief is man can never become a God!!

    • June 2, 2010 7:45 pm

      Ram was supposed to be God in the avataar of man. that is what our Hindu Mythology says.

      • June 8, 2010 12:09 am

        God is nothing but a symbol/ idol of good character. The man who lives for others is a god for people. If we starts praying in front of a simple stone our mind develops accordingly and the imagination of god becomes visible for us.

  3. June 2, 2010 8:13 pm

    I dont think today’s girls are looking for Ram or even guys are trying to become one. Ram is an Idol to be looked upon. Strive for the good things that you like in him and leave the extreme ones.

    Lets remain humans and enjoy rather become god and be worshipped!

    • June 3, 2010 9:58 am

      you are right, but why do elders bless young ones specially the girls to find a husband like Ram?
      are they not aware of the happenings in the life of Ram’s wife?
      or they want the young girls to pass through the same circle of life

      • ram bakth permalink
        September 20, 2011 3:50 pm

        I don’t know elders intention of blessing to make there daughters miserable like sita’s life…better we ask our ask elders… question them draw answer from them ..rather than judging vaguely in the blog about our elders and thiere intentions putting ram name in the middle of these controversy .
        ( OH!!!poor little ram because of society lost his beloved wife when your wife is pregnant , in 21st century ppl still didnt understand true nature of yours. at least, i presume you are happy in the heaven with your bloved wife sita..yes this society always like this dont ever come with another incarnation in to these evil society it wont change …RAM)…

  4. June 2, 2010 9:31 pm

    Well… Ramayana is certainly not fiction. There are innumerable evidences strewn all around…

    But… several versions of Ramayana exist. ‘Valmiki Ramayana’, ‘Krittibashi Ramayana’, Kalidas’ ‘Raghuvansham’ and so on and so forth. Now I hear one of the top politicians and so-called dalit leader Veerappa Moily is coming out with “his version”…

    Plus… our understanding/interpretation of our epics… is not complete. And we try to make “modern versions” out of them!

    What is described as “vannar” in the Ramayana is taken as “monkey”. This is incorrect. “Van” means “forest” and “nar” refers to “human”. Therefore… “vannar” is “forest dwelling human” or “human with ape nature”.

    Similarly, “Jambaban/Jambuban” is depicted as a bear. This again is wrong. In ancient times… Bharatvarsha was referred to as “Jambu dweepa”… named after a type of fruit… found in abundance here. So, Jambaban was someone belonging to Jambudweepa… an ancient person perhaps.

    Also… Sita is thought to be the daughter of Mandodari (Ravan’s main Queen) in a story reminiscent of Karna and Kunti. They are said to have looked so alike… that even Hanuman was confused!

    Most of us have to depend on so-called ‘scholars’, ‘translators’ and ‘experts’ to understand our epics… since we are not familiar with the sanskrit language. There lies the crux.

    Now… “Purush” refers to a “man”. But “Purush” actually meant the “Supreme Being” of which/whom our souls were/are a part of…

    You can see how “changes” have happened…

  5. Neha permalink
    June 2, 2010 9:35 pm

    thats a very controversial post …

    you are trying to challenge the scriptures…
    what has been written down for eons and worshiped…
    is definitely arguable

    i totally agree… if a husband does not trust his wife … especially the one who agreed to go on exile with him… is not someone a girl would want to be with

    i always wonder… how u come up with post topics like these…
    good job !!!

    • June 3, 2010 7:27 pm

      who am I to challange the scriptures. my knowledge of our history is limited to some story books, some serials, some movies etc.
      but from all this it is clear that Ram was not an ideal husband 😦

  6. June 3, 2010 12:52 am

    I think all these short-comings of Ram as a husband hints at the fact that Ram was a human being and not a god, as people might say. He wasn’t perfect.(assuming that gods are perfect) Ram was born as a human being. (Yes, I know he was an incarnation of Vishnu)

    Now, why is he worshipped then?
    He wasn’t a good husband maybe, but surely a good king; and in ancient times people did worship a good king and looked upon him as a god. Maybe something like that happened and the successors of the subjects followed the trend and created idols oh him. Bringing back Sita from the clutches of Ravan was considered the biggest achievement of Ram, so Sita is placed by his side as a trophy.

    Now this is purely a point of view.
    I don’t intend to hurt the religious sentiments of pious Hindus.

    • June 3, 2010 7:43 pm

      Sayak I dont think any God was perfect. Sorry God!!!!!!!!!
      but about Ram we all know
      krishna his pure and platonic love with Radha and his 1000 queens again a well known fact
      and I read somwhere
      that in the battle of Mahabharat Krishna used many tricks so that Pandavas could win( every thing is fair in war) being God he should have helped Pandavas win by fair means and not by manipulating certain situations ( again Krishna did all this in his avtaar of a human being so i suppose he can also be excused)
      Lors Shiva is known for his anger
      so even Gos are not perfect

  7. LMJ permalink
    June 3, 2010 9:38 am

    i wud prefer such blessings not b given…..’ram sita ki jodi’, when we know in practical world, it does not work out. but there has to be some examples to be said.

    it is sure no parent would want their daughter to be married to such a person.
    when they give such blessings they r considering only the length of the relation inspite of the difficulties.

    • June 3, 2010 10:59 pm

      Ram hardly spent any time with Sita in the true sense of a matrimonial relation’
      so question of blessing someone for length of relation is a farce

  8. June 3, 2010 11:39 am

    Anju Indian girls fast on Mondays and pray for a husband like Shiva. Ram is not seen as an ideal husband at all.

    I read this very interesting post where the author has explained how Mithila wasi – residents of Sita’s home town are still displeased with Ram. They say one should not marry their daughters in the villages to the ‘west’ of Mithila because they fear the girls might get a husband like Ram – and they do not want that.
    The temples there also have only Sita’s idols.
    Their folk songs are also about (songs on weddings also) girls asking their fathers to find them a husband who is not like Ram.

    And the rest of India also sees Shiva-Parvati as a loving and ideal couple. In Ram’s case, I feel he was a typical first born son in the family, under pressure to be a perfect son, also under pressure to be a good ruler… loving and respecting his wife would have meant a happier life for himself, his parents (except Kaikeyi) and for all the people… but I guess our culture of worrying about ‘what would people say’ was not any different in those days. One did not stand up for what one knew was right, one did what the neighbourhood dhobi and the father’s third wife expected one to do. Sad 😦

    About hurting religious sentiments – have you read Neo Indian’s post about it?

    • June 3, 2010 11:04 pm

      Thanx IHM , will surely go thru the link given my you

      A husband like Shiva? i donot know much about shiv parvati. No serial on their life as yet :_)
      but Shiva is known for his temper
      i just wonder what would have happened if Ram had said i am more concerned about my children and my wife, and I hereby leave my kingdom .
      would people have respected him less?
      after all he was Gos and the people knew that he was incarnation of Lord Vishnu

    • January 14, 2016 12:30 pm

      Also – Not to mention, Ram went against everyone when he salvaged Ahilya who everyone said was a characterless woman and forgiving her would mean women would go astray. He did not listen to anyone because he knew what was right.

      Also, I think he thought of Sita as his own. That step gave him as much sorrow as her. People in Ayodhya still feel that they did a grave injustice to Sita and that Sita cursed the girls of the city to never have a happily married life

  9. June 3, 2010 11:42 am

    Anju, here ‘s a post by Neo Indian – about outraged religious sentiments – take a look,

  10. June 3, 2010 12:58 pm

    This is an interesting opinion, Anju. One that has been voiced by Tagore himself as well.

  11. June 3, 2010 1:03 pm

    Nice thoughts. But elders believe in a lotta unreasonable things, so i wud we have to take em wid a pinch of salt, most of da times. Well written tho.

  12. Reader permalink
    June 3, 2010 2:00 pm

    I am agree with Indian Homemaker post. Ram is seen as an ideal brother like Ram-Laxman or Ram-Bharat. Not as a Good Husband.

    • June 3, 2010 11:06 pm

      when he had no respect for his wife then how come we always find the idols of both Ram and Sita in the temples?

    • Shailendra permalink
      January 13, 2016 8:21 pm

      Ram : He fought for his wife with the most powerful king of that time.
      Never married again, never said anything bad to his wife.

  13. June 3, 2010 4:21 pm

    Look it this way. This story says all about the sacrifice of Sita than the considerations of Ram.

  14. June 3, 2010 4:35 pm

    The questions raised by you can be best answered by some religious pundit well versed in our mythological happenings and stories. I have read NONE!
    I feel that many of these were written by learned people to inculcate certain culture in the society.May be because of such preachings only, olden days marriage stood like rock unlike today where its going to dogs! Wife used to follow ‘Pati dharma’ not questioning any thing (even if they appear wrong to us).

  15. June 3, 2010 6:41 pm

    Isn’t it more common these days to bless for a husband like the ones that are in television serials these days? I remember not long ago, how the ashirvad for bahus was something like ‘Meri bahu bhi Tulsi jaisi ho’. And Damad milein toh Mihir Virani jaisa..I think Ram and Sita have become passe in common lexicon more and more, especially in soap addicted households of India

    • June 3, 2010 11:07 pm

      i fully agree with you
      mother in laws these days identify with the characters of the serials

    • June 8, 2010 11:56 pm

      Considering that every time I see a soap and see the men in it, I am reminded of spineless, mindless morons who can’t decide and are mama’s boys. I think I just made a few feminists call me their poster boy LOL.

      • July 5, 2010 7:04 pm

        Hey Sriram, I mean no offence but do you mind being called mama’s boy ? Being a mama’s boy does not means that a boy cannot take decisions of his life. But is parents consent not necessary for decisions that are taken ideally once in life? A decision which affects life of the boy and their parents(unless the boy decides to separate from his family).
        I apologize if I have hurt any of your sentiments.

  16. June 3, 2010 7:08 pm

    question : wud u like to have a husband like gandhi?

    • June 4, 2010 10:10 am

      i already have a husband who is Gandhi ( Gandhi is our surname)
      regarding your question I dont think that i would like my husband to be like any one in totality
      but a combination of many will surely do.
      all the good qualities of different men pooled together in one man — that is what I want
      and now that I already have one for this birth
      i hope i get a combo in the next birth

      • June 5, 2010 2:59 am

        i noticed the surname after i posted the comment and felt that u will mite take it in the wrong sense …fortunately i have been fortunate…what i meant was that for anyone to be idealistic or to be true to themselves, it will be always at the cost of another…even invariably due to the expectations…sometimes one has to choose which way one shud sway…but the greatest of the men will always choose to sway towards himself…its like isaac ismov’s law of robotics…for the sake of many one can sacrifice the few…

        we are all destined to fail …even in our success.

  17. June 3, 2010 8:56 pm

    Yeah, you are right!, I , for one, don’t want Ram type people

    • Shailendra permalink
      January 13, 2016 8:25 pm

      what kind of husband do you want Ravana ?

  18. June 3, 2010 10:37 pm

    Ramayana was just a play of the divine. Ram and Sita always knew who they were. At the most transcendental level there was no separation between the two. They were ONE in every aspect of life. The person who presided over that country had to make sure that no one becomes an idol or an object of excessive adulation even if he is God incarnate. Through a series of checks & balances, it was made clear that imperfections were bound to exist. Why? So that tolerance becomes a quality with the country’s people.

    A promise kept is faith delivered! Ram was not just a husband, he was a king as well. And Dasharatha was a very intelligent man. He wanted his son to be put through the most grueling of tests to make sure that only the right guy enthrones as the monarch. Every thing comes with a price. If he were a citizen, he would not have given a rat’s ass to what other people say. But being a king comes with its own responsibilities. His perspective was and has to be enlarged taking into consideration the sentiments and feelings of his subjects.

    When both of them knew their identities as the one without the second, hierarchy or one evaluating the other becomes needless. But for the people of Ayodhya it was not so. Communal violence and public outrage could have erupted had he not done what he were to do. What can fire do to someone who was the embodiment of fire herself? Yes, his position and the many lives he held in his hand was very important. He could have dethroned but the country could have fallen into chaos given the sensitivity of reactions post the anointing ceremony.

    There are two views to look at him. One is a king with common aspirations. And another as a common man with uncommon powers of observation and administrations. Every individual incident in the Ramanaya offers an unique insight when taken apart from their subjective occurrence and analyzed individually. Take for instance what appears to be a prison sentence for Sita in the forest. It was also a preparatory ground for her two sons Lava and Kusha in the wilderness. They grew up not as princes or sons of a king but in total anonymity without having any special privileges than the rest.

    And the way she has brought them up has to shine before his kingdom. So there is another test for them when they first encounter their father before the entire country. Their quality of upbringing and the strength of characters showed before everyone. No questions asked. No objections raised. Unopposed they are selected and accepted as fit rulers of the state. If this had to happen, then the chain of events before had to be planned and executed. On successful completion of which, we have an elegant epic to be handed over as legacy to the posterity.

    This is just my opinion 🙂 I am just an ignoramus trying to comprehend the perceived chinks in Armour of this tale from a bygone era.

  19. June 4, 2010 4:29 am

    @ Anju

    It seems that you are too much frustrated over the issue though I cant think of any possible reason for it. Your points are valid from your viewpoint and you have every right to be upset about them but the amount of frustration makes it look like someone said this too you and you are too much angry about the “curse?” given.

    Anyways I will quote one of your own comments below-

    “my knowledge of our history is limited to some story books, some serials, some movies etc.”

    Sadly these are NOT good places to gather information from. Religion or science in the form of religion is much more complicated. Many things known to Hindus are TRUTH but not FACTS. And I am not talking about Ram here. But your comments about Krishna seem to have too have been much influenced by the movies or stories.

    At the end I would sum it up with 1 eternal quote from Lord Buddha-

    Believe nothing,
    no matter where you read it,
    or who has said it
    not even if I have said it,
    unless it agrees with your own reasons and your own common sense.

    So anything which are common sense and reasoning doesnt accept shoulnt be followed. 🙂

  20. June 4, 2010 4:39 am

    And just to clear 1 thing-

    I am not frustrated here. 😀

    Infact I somewhat agree with you on few points of Lord Rama ( not all of them off course) and have myself wondered a few times as to what could be a possible and reasonable explanation of Lord Rama leaving Sita mata again but couldnt think of any answer except 1.

    I read somewhere (most probably on the Website of Ramakrishna mission) that Valmiki Ramayana (The most authentic) ended with Lord Rama returning back to Ayodhya after killing Ravana. The later part is not authentic and was added later!

    Now Ramakrishna mission is an authentic organisation and it would really answer a lot of questions if it happened that way but noone can say anything for sure! So it takes us back to the quote given in above post-

    Dont believe in anything which doesnt agree with your reasons and common sense 🙂

    • June 4, 2010 9:23 am

      Thanx for your views.
      no one gave me that curse/blessing. these sort of blessings are generally reserved for either newlyweds or young girls( age wise) and i m neither of two LOL
      even i have heard that Valmikis Ramayan ended with Ram and Sita returning to Ayodhya
      i also read that Valmiki ended his Ramayana here only as he could not see his idol, his perfect man behaving in such a way with his wife
      so he choose to finish his part of ramayan with a happy note and generally giving an image of a perfect, considerate man

  21. June 9, 2010 12:18 am

    Personally when I started exploring Hindu scriptures I found somethings odd. The Ramayan shows Sita as not a weak woman but someone who was quite well versed in politics and warfare and was strong too. The bow bending competition was to find a man who could lift the bow as she had done it effortlessly as a kid.

    Considering this background I am not sure she would be such a wimpy easy kidnapping target. Also the Ramayan was about perfect people for a perfect world, the progression was into the Mahabharatha which is about imperfect people and wrong decisions.

    Also consider that the second time she was asked to take agnipariksha, she did tell Rama to take a hike :D.

  22. June 10, 2010 1:02 am

    After some exhaustive research, I have reached to a conclusion that versions of Ramayana exists in many languages, including Annamese, Balinese, Bengali, Cambodian, Chinese, Gujarati, Javanese, Kannada, Kashmiri, Khotanese, Laotian, Malaysian, Marathi, Oriya, Prakrit, Sanskrit, Santhali, Sinhalese, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Tibetan, etc. In Sanskrit itself there are 25 different versions. According to A. K. Ramanujam, more than 300 tellings of Ramayana exist.

    Each has newer dimensions, more fascinating than the other.

    Read them in reverse order here-

  23. June 11, 2010 2:10 pm

    Whether I agree or not on this post is different thing But I trully Enjoyed reading this post. 🙂
    Totally hilarious:)..

    I want to follow this blog..

  24. Ramesh permalink
    June 14, 2010 4:47 pm

    Nice topic… Healthy discussion too.. What i think is we should not just blindly follow any of our Mahapurush. Time has changed a lot now and morals too so we need to move ourselves according to time. We just cant stick to the systems of our forefathers/Ram or so. For a married man the family should come first.. Its his prime Dharm to properly take care of them.

  25. June 17, 2010 10:08 am

    I am just wondering how I missed reading this post. With “Raavan” realeasing this week, I have been thinking a lot about “Ramayana” too. Infact I even wrote a post on it! We should give Mani Ratnam the credit of bringing bring “Ramayana “and its controversies back into our lives.

    I don’t think any mother would want “Ram” for a SIL. Neither would anyone want “Krishna”. While Ram, ignored his wife and kids, Krishna encouraged brothers to fight against eachother. Both of them were Avatars of Vishnu. I think , what God basically means to say is that, you should change according to situation and circumstances.

    My mom never let me own a picture of ” Radheyshyam”, though they were my favourite couple. She always preferred “Shiv Parvati”, thanks to IHM , now I know why!

  26. Anshul permalink
    June 21, 2010 8:18 am

    Nice topic , very well written and great discussions. I want to add some of my thoughts to this discussion.

    Firstly i am not very religious and i have never been to ramayan . what i know about ramayan is through serials or some one told me. So i think , yes anju is correct , as per thr points mention here RAM is not a idol husband and no girl want his husband like RAM.

    But if i look at the positive side i think what blessing of an elder people to young people as “ Ram Sita ki Jodi jaise bano/ May you find a husband like Ram/ Ram Sita ki Jodi lag rahi hai” means that your husband remain only yours for the life time. Even if you apart from his life for some reasons , or whatever be the situation , your husband only thinks of you and always be loyal to you.

    In today’s scenario when we see that the number of seperations between couples ,extra maritial affairs , divources , quarrels between couples increases exponentially , these blessings have their importance in the younger people life.

    • September 8, 2011 9:37 pm

      I beg to differ. Ram was never only Sita’s despite the fact the Ram was everything Sita wanted.

      I in fact see irony 😐

  27. August 14, 2011 12:47 pm

    Sri Rama would have faced criminal case under provision of Section 498-A IPC for cruelty& deserting and neglecting pregnant wife and legally ,Smt.Sita would be entitle for divorce under cruelty.neglect,false charge of infidelity and entitle for maintenance. or permanent alimony.
    Secondly every man will take clue from Ramayana for suspecting fidelity of his wife and send her out of marital home.
    My contention is there are many contradictions in Ramayana ,which will be not good for promoting ideal &healthy family life.

  28. September 8, 2011 9:32 pm

    I hate it so much reading this. And, we respect these people calling them ‘God’ and all 😐

  29. May 9, 2012 1:05 pm

    I totally agree with you, Anju ji!! Which is why maybe in our vedas, Ram is always regarded as the most righteous man but not a good husband. In fact, I love the fact that our Gods are so relatable. Their avatars on Earth lived like humans, cried like humans, did all the mistakes like humans!! That is very relatable!

  30. vedant permalink
    October 28, 2013 4:15 am

    monkeys build floating bridge in broad daylight in roaring ocean. ravana as a mighty king kept watching them hand folding and allowed ramas army to attack on lanka. its like pakistan building bridge to gujarat where narendra modi rules.

  31. kedar joshi permalink
    October 28, 2013 4:25 am

    rama asked lakshamana to leave sita in mid of river in a boat lakshamana obeyed him

  32. mandar dikshit permalink
    October 28, 2013 4:33 am

    i am sure that sita ran away with ravana because she wanted ‘comfortttttttttt” of palace she was boared to hardships in jungle thats why she given up ramas given jewellery.or she removed jewellery to have sex with ravana.which found on the path she ran away with rama.

  33. lata tendulkar permalink
    October 28, 2013 4:39 am

    rama came to south india in one day and killed shambuka. what made him one year to preapre for war with ravana. was he training monkey army how to fight war.

  34. aditi kulkarni permalink
    October 28, 2013 4:45 am

    lakshamana might have sexual relationships with sita without it he might have not left his wife and back home his wife must have been taken care by bharata and shatrughana because fourteen years no married women can stay without sex.dashrath had three wives.

  35. Raahul permalink
    March 26, 2014 11:15 pm

    A soldier left his wife on their first wedding night because he receive a call that nation needs him. SO are you still making a question on soldier character as He prefer his duties against family…..!!!

    It is always easy to find 10 bad points about any person but it is really tough to find and appreciate 1 good quality in every person….!!!!

  36. rain permalink
    January 7, 2016 8:23 am

    I am not here to defend lord ram nor those who are against him. But let me question a few things.
    1. Why didn’t rama marry again if he could, even when he got the opportunity to marry again at the time of ashwamedha yagna.
    2. Sita lost her husband’s company but she had her children with her, what did ram have a palace with loneliness. Which is better a palace or children?

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